Wild Thornberries Abstract Discussion 4/22/13

[Abstract Discussion] Minutes from [4/23/2013]
People Present:: Tanner Grogan, Peter (Spec), Andrew Szczurek, Karina Wiener, Samara Flug, Tamar Hoffman, Brian Guggenheimer, Kaziah White, Kat Poje, Irene, Spec #1, Austin Boyle, Emily Ferguson, Rachel James

Abstract Discussion — Wild Thornberries
Mo si.
Say names. Read abstract.Tamar: Anything anybody wants to discuss? Otherwise we can move on to the discussion questions. Let’s start with the jury’s decisions. The Code says that separation always needs to be considered.
Andrew: This is surprising because the Honor Code says cases of plagiarism will normally result in separation.
Tamar: True I may be projecting my interpretation, but I see it as meaning that separation will always be considered.
Samara: We discussed changing it and that’s a whole discussion in and of itself. Still, I think it is very serious to plagiarize your thesis.
Kaziah: Would it be social or academic separation?
Tamar: There is no meaningful difference. When we talk about separation we normally mean separation from the college.
Kaziah: She was almost done and about to graduate.
Tamar: True maybe we should discuss the fact that she was a second semester senior.
Emily: I think it definitely changes the way I view separation. She has already finished everything and separation is supposed to help restore somebody to the community.
Karina: I think it’s still important that they receive the education. It seems just as important, if not more so, for a student that is about to get a degree from Haverford.
Samara: It bothers me even more that she didn’t turn in her letter.
Tamar: What can we do when they have already graduated?
Kat: It seems relatively frequent that people don’t fulfill their resolutions. For example in Toy Story we
Samara: Technically not fulfilling a resolution is a violation.
Austin: We can’t confront people that haven’t graduated.
Kat: But how can you graduate without fulfilling your obligations?
Tamar: There is also an element of practicality that we have to consider. This case looks like it might have finished just before finals. How much can you really do if you don’t want to separate somebody in part because they are on their way out, then isn’t saying you haven’t written your letter to the community so you can’t walk saying the same thing.
Austin: I think restoring yourself to the community is a bit of a process. If something is happening at the end of the semester, even if you follow your checklist you haven’t really done it.
Tamar: I think regardless of the resolutions the trial process itself is pretty weighty and restorative in and of itself. Even once you’ve finished it, thinking about that process is really valuable and unfortunately that doesn’t always happen.
Samara: I wonder if that process is different because the student is at Bryn Mawr.
Tamar takes some time to explain thesis project to specs.
Samara; It bothers me that it was her thesis.]
Emily And accidental plagiarism isn’t an excuse as a senior.
Kaziah: She admits it wasn’t accidental at one point. She said that she hadn’t had a lot of time but agreed she copied Wikipedia sentences.
Andrew: It comes back to what Eliza was saying about her work ethic. Obviously it wasn’t an accident, but how dishonorable is it not to have the strength to care anymore.
Tamar: I’m also not convinced that just because it’s a thesis it matters.
Karina: But at an academic community when that’s the culmination of your experience? This should be your work.
Brian: It was a chapter of her thesis. Not the final draft. That may make a difference.
Kaziah: I still don’t think that’s as valid.
Irene: I don’t know if that was possible for her though just because she was already on academic probation. That may have made it harder for her.
Peter: Having severe anxiety or depression is crippling. It’s a severe, long-term thing. It’s not curable with one pill.
Tamar: On that note how do people feel about the other circumstances of this case. I think mental illness is a tricky subjects because it’s something that juries don’t always understand. Sometimes it can be used as an excuse. Sometimes it’s true but sometimes it’s an instinct to defend oneself.
Samara: I think that’s true and she was seeing a therapist so she was trying to deal with it. Sometimes that’s easier said than done.
Andrew: That relates to the resolutions too. They said that separation wasn’t warranted because she hadn’t removed herself so far from the standards of the community as to have separated herself.
Kaziah: Can I ask about the grades? Has that happened before.
Tamar: During an academic trial, the jury almost always discusses recommending a grade change. Faculty members are not required to follow it, but they usually do.
Samara: That’s a legal thing too. Legally the jury can’t know what the grade is and it’s outside the purview of the jury.
Tamar: There is often a limit in the expertise of juries. It seems more logical to give professors a little more credit.
Tamar: Does anybody else have questions? I think the mental health issue is really interesting if anybody else wants to talk about that?
Andrew: I think it’s strange the jury said “will” instead of “recommends”.
Irene: I think the Professor changed the grade beforehand anyway.
Tamar: I don’t think they ever intentionally say “will”.
Austin: Sometimes they say “the jury supports X’s decision”
Samara: This is related to the 3rd discussion question.
Rachel: Since it is up to the Professor I can say people saying this is really none of our business.
Tamar: I see why one would feel that way but I strongly disagree. I think the jury holds a really powerful role in that they see a student wholistically. Sometimes students often have sympathy for one another and open up in a different way than they do with Professors. Given that I think it’s definitely a jury’s responsibility to do that ind of thing.
Samara: Trials are both about the relationship with students and professors. The jury has to represent the rest of the student body, which may include somebody else in this girl’s thesis group. Given that it’s very important to have the jury’s input on the grade.
Tanner: In tentative it’s mentioned that there is a certain Marianna who thought it might not be feasible to write it over the summer. There are also mentions of financial issues. It’s never mentioned but is there actually feasibility?
Tamar: We discussed that on Honor Council and weren’t sure about that. My guess is that she didn’t finish the thesis.
Irene: Does Bryn Mawr require a thesis?
Tamar: No. Not if she was in a department offered at both colleges.
Emily: That seems flawed to me though. It intereferes with the integrity of our Honor Code if you can get around the system.
Rachel: I think especially because separation was discussed. Finishing the thesis was part of the restoration process. It sort of seems ended and there was no restorative value.
Irene: If separated she would only be separated from Haverford not Bryn Mawr.
Samara: Doesn’t Bryn Mawr decide?
Tamar: That’s the responsibililty of Honor Council to communicate with Bryn Mawr’s Honor Board.
Tanner: What was the reason that she was tried under the Haverford Honor Code not the Bryn Mawr one?
Tamar: Because any violation that happens at Haverford is under Haverford’s Code.
Austin: Same the other way.
Samara: I don’t know but my impression is that it would be harder for Haverford to skirt those issues at Bryn Mawr.
Kaziah: Are there ever cases where they work together?
Samara: There’s a liaison at Bryn Mawr’s trials.
Tamar: Basically cases are just reported to Bryn Mawr.
Austin: It was originally envisioned to work better than it does. It was an idea and people thought it would be super but it didn’t work out that nicely. Oftentimes people weren’t interested. To be honest it makes more sense for BMC students to come here because we have a much longer trial process.
Karina; It seems in the recent cases cross-college. I don’t know.
Samara: The bi-co liaison passed in the fall but maybe there were old abstracts.
Tamar: Any other main concerns? We could get started on another topic or close off if that’s what people are feeling.
Emily: Why aren’t we in Ryan Gym.
Tamar: They’re doing thesis rehearsals. If nobody has anything else, let’s end here.
Mo si.

These minutes reflect the interpretations of Janela Harris and Brian Guggenheimer, Co-Secretaries. They are neither reviewed nor approved by the rest of Honor Council. Questions/comments? Email hccosecs@hc!